Yesterday's article "The Psychopathic Fascist" contained part one of my new interview with clinical psychologist Vince Greenwood, Ph.D., focusing mainly on Trump's psychopathy and the danger to America he continues to represent.
In part two, Dr. Greenwood talks more about the anti-democratic political party and extremist religious movement that continue to hold Trump up as their—and America's—savior.
As Steve Taylor, Ph.D., wrote in Psychology Today in 2019, "pathological leaders always attract other people with personality disorders, who seize the opportunity to gain influence. At the same time, individuals who are moral, empathic and fair-minded gradually fall away... As a result, over time pathocracies tend to become entrenched and extreme."
We've seen this happen in real-time to the Republican Party in the age of Trump, bringing us to what Dr. Greenwood describes as "a democracy-be-damned, extinction-level political moment."
Note: Thanks to my paid subscribers, this newsletter comes to you ad-free and with no paywall. If you haven't already, please sign up now to get future issues delivered free by email... or, if you can, support with a paid annual subscription for just $2/month.
Part Two of my Q&A with Vince Greenwood, Ph.D.
Q: As long as Trump is its leader, the GOP seems ever more willing to embrace not just authoritarianism—but also the violence needed to make it happen. Is this evidence the GOP is mimicking Trump’s psychopathic behaviors? Should we be worried that people like Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Elise Stefanik or even Speaker Mike Johnson are also psychopaths?
A: I don’t look at the GOP’s embrace of authoritarianism and violence through the lens of clinical psychopathy. Of course, I couldn’t give an opinion on whether Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Elise Stefanik or Mike Johnson are psychopaths, since making that diagnosis involves a rigorous diagnostic process that requires significant detail about their life histories. But I doubt they would meet the high standard of criteria to qualify for the diagnosis. Psychopathic Personality Disorder is an extreme and rare condition that afflicts less than 1% of the population.
However, Donald Trump is a diagnosed clinical psychopath and he has obviously been a role model to GOP politicians for the shattering of democratic and civil norms. He has openly embraced violence in calling for shoplifters to be executed, and making fun of Nancy Pelosi’s 82-year-old husband getting smashed in the skull with a hammer. He models cruelty in the way he has heaped scorn on all the enemies of MAGA: immigrants, black and brown skinned voters, feminists, and Democrats. He has made it permissible to take pleasure in the disparagement of these so-called usurpers of the American Dream.
But I don’t think we can blame Trump or his psychiatric condition for the embrace of violence and the anti-democracy GOP mindset. I am afraid there is a large and passionate market for these ideas. Trump and these MAGA politicians are playing to this market, not creating it. It may be many are opportunistic and basically in it for the power or the glory or the money. But there is no denying the mass movement that insists America is the birthright of white Christians and that birthright must by restored by any means necessary.
Trumpism is a bottom-up, not a top-down movement. Trump himself had no involvement or interest in evangelicals before he ran for president. His lifestyle and rhetoric are a harsh rebuke to Christian morality. This leads to the now stale cries of hypocrisy from non-evangelicals. But of course evangelical Christian Nationalism is a political, not a religious movement.
So, no wonder the most militant and conservative voices now dominate the House of Representatives; and they have anointed an ardent evangelical as their Speaker. This is what the evangelical base—the heart of the Republican Party—demands. A recent American Values Survey put out by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 30% of Americans either “completely” or generally agree with the following statements:
* The U.S. government should declare America a Christian Nation.
* God has called Christians to exercise dominion over all areas of society.
* U.S. laws should be based on Christian values.
Mike Johnson, our Speaker of the House, is a radical warrior who has decried “The sprawling alliance of anti-God enthusiasts” who “have proven frighteningly efficient at remaking America in their own brutal, dehumanizing image.” In seminars he and his wife have conducted to promote the U.S. as a Christian nation, his mission is clear: “Our nation is entering one of the most challenging seasons in its history, and there is an urgent need for God’s people to be armed and ready with the Truth.” So says the guy that is now second in line for the presidency.
"Trump's lifestyle and rhetoric are a harsh rebuke to Christian morality. This leads to the now stale cries of hypocrisy from non-evangelicals. But of course evangelical Christian Nationalism is a political, not a religious movement." Vince Greenwood, Ph.D.
An anti-democracy and pro-violent mindset is at the heart of the evangelical Christian psychology. First, evangelicals have the bedrock assumption that only they can discern truths the rest of us cannot. Second, they have a Manichean view of the world that breaks everything down to intrinsically good or evil. Third, evangelical followers view the future in apocalyptic terms. They assume we are at or near the end of times, and God has mandated a Holy War to bring about the Kingdom of God. Emboldened with the fundamentalist certainty in the perfidy of non-believers, they are God’s army who demand insurrection against the infidels now in power and all of us non-evangelical “others.” Although a large movement, evangelicals are in the minority in the overall populace. Therefore, violence and other extra-legal means must be embraced to realize their mission.
Q: Why do you think so many people still remain willing to vote for Trump? Is there anything we could still try to do get through to them?
A: Half the country was shocked when Trump won in 2016. And don’t forget in 2020 Trump received more votes than any presidential candidate in history (with the exception of Joe Biden of course). So many of us remain bewildered at his level of support.
However, since 2016 there have been significant contributions to our understanding of Trumpism: from the fields of political science, sociology, cognitive neuroscience, journalism as well as other disciplines. We now have credible, empirically informed theories that shed light on his enduring popularity. These include the economic decline of the white working class, the spread of disinformation by Fox News and other right-wing media conglomerates, the backlash to the gains of the Civil Rights movement and the election of our first black president, the emergence of a post-truth world fueled by the spread of conspiracy theories on ideologically- fragmented social media platforms, high levels of nihilism and cynicism reflecting a crisis in meaning, and the ‘evil genius’ of Trump himself. I think we also have to acknowledge that some of the messaging from the “woke Left” and the “resistance” has alienated some reachable voters.
With regard to reaching out to voters, I would encourage all of us to stay in the fight, and work hard and intelligently at outreach. We can’t let the fear of his re-election immobilize or discourage us. It is not easy emotionally to stay engaged in such a fraught time, but it certainly seems like we are at a democracy-be-damned, extinction-level political moment.
But I would not expend any energy on Trump’s base, the white, evangelical MAGA mob. To them Trump is God’s chosen vehicle to bring the virtuous back to power and to wreak vengeance on those democracy-loving evil Democrats. They are beyond reach. Indeed, research shows that efforts to reason with Trump supporters only strengthens their support of him.
For the sliver of persuadable voters in Red America, it is important to remember that voters respond more to feelings than reason. We respond more to how a politician makes us feel rather than what they might do for us. Many of us in the mental health community are trying to elicit fear, which is appropriate given the severity and dangerousness of Trump’s Psychopathic Personality Disorder. We are trying to deliver the message that having someone in the Oval Office who has no conscience at all is exceedingly dangerous. He is like a man behind the wheel of a car with no brakes or steering and takes satisfaction in mowing down whoever crosses his path.
Another possible lane for outreach would be to find common ground with moderates and conservatives on positive values. This is more likely to succeed with an emphasis on more conservative values such as patriotism, liberty and respect for the rule of law; rather than values associated with liberalism such as fairness, tolerance and compassion.
Q: What is your biggest fear about the 2024 election?
A: The more obvious answer is if Trump wins that will be the end of democracy, at least for the foreseeable future. Also, many of the liberties we have come to take for granted, will disappear overnight. The Trumpists are telling us this clearly and directly. And they are working on detailed plans to implement their fascist vision.
The less obvious answer is that the election of 2024 does not represent some democracy-preserving moment. That we have already crossed the Rubicon. Trumpism has taken over one of our two political parties and a significant part of the electorate with the following real time consequences: democratic norms shattered. a functioning body politic shattered, the search for truth as the primary means for resolving disputes shattered, the ability to survive as a diverse society shattered.
That is, we are already in a state of inevitable collapse. Our institutions and our mindsets have already been corroded by the emergence of Trumpism over the past eight years. The problem no longer is simply dealing with a demagogue, but an implosive movement that was underestimated every step along its way. An implosive movement that is now deeply rooted and will have its way with us before it is done.
I do have faith that we will eventually work our way to higher ground. In history, progressive forces ultimately supplant authoritarian regimes. People will ultimately not allow themselves to be subjugated. But it may take a generation for Trumpism to exhaust itself, with much ruin along the way.
Q: What is your biggest hope for the 2024 election?
That the election represents the beginning of the end of Trumpism. The Democrats eke out a victory. Our democratic institutions wobble but don’t fall. Civil unrest from the Right only rises to the level of performative farce as seen on January 6th. The demographics in the country continue to inch away from the rural, white, evangelical cohort, thus reducing the threat of minority rule in the future.
That because of all the election defeats since 2016, Trumpian politicians—Gaetz, MTG, Mike Johnson, etc.—finally fall out of favor with a large swath of the GOP base. Since Trump is no longer a viable candidate, his influence wanes (his flamboyance and psychopathic behavior will likely go through the roof, but it will be in an echo chamber). Most importantly, a new generation of conservative politicians emerges. This next wave of politicians is pro-democracy and respects the dignity of all people; they reject conspiracy thinking and nihilism; and they uphold the separation of church and state. They do this because a significant majority of the electorate demand it. The Republican Party becomes sane again.
Also, fascist-leaning parties around the globe fare poorly in upcoming elections. The current Trumpist/fascist flirtation turns out to be just another contradiction that apparently had to worm its way into the political process, but ultimately withered because it violated our basic desire for freedom and dignity.
We must all hope that the arc of history continues to bend toward justice without a major reactionary regression.
For more of Dr. Vince Greenwood's work, visit dutytoinform.org.
Subscribe to Unprecedented
Subscribe to the newsletter and unlock access to member-only content.